Bill C9: How Bad Is It?

https://video.wixstatic.com/video/8c243a_d4225b4845904a32a66df36de7923c30/file

Brad Fiddler and Chris Byberg examine Bill C9’s actual wording, separating concern from alarm. They discuss hate propaganda, religious access, possible risks for Canadian churches, and how believers can respond with wisdom, prayer, and constructive civic engagement.

Transcript

There was a willingness to negotiate which I didn't see coming. Right? There was a willingness to make it work. And to tell you the truth, and this is this was the main argument that they brought up. How can someone say that they want to commit genocide in good faith? Good question. >> And that's the crux of what's going on here. When we look at the fullness of this law, parts of it are worrisome. Maybe somebody can weaponize, but it's not [music] as draconian as we thought it was. Welcome to Prayer Stream, a podcast from [music] the National House of Prayer in Ottawa. We're here to have conversations with leaders and authors about prayer and how it intersects with

the local church, politics [music] and government, Israel, and anything else that might pop up in the news. Join me, your host, Brad Fitler, along with Chris Byberg, as we [music] wait into the prayer stream. Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of [music] the Prayer Stream podcast. I am your host Brad Fiddler. I'm here with Chris Byberg today. Chris, say hi. >> Hello everybody. So great to see you all. I hope you're enjoying this summer. I know we shouldn't try to time date these things, but I'm going to do it anyway cuz it's summer time and it's and I'm so happy that we're here and that you're spending time with us for the next little while. >> Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, it's

it's summer. I'm happy to be inside recording right now because it is very hot outside. >> But uh yeah, thanks for joining with us. Uh today we're going to talk about a topic that kind of matches the temperature outside as far as uh the heat. We want to talk about Bill C9 today. which >> that's right just passed uh a couple weeks ago I think it is now uh will be becoming law July is it 16th or July 18th in a couple weeks here and uh yeah so we wanted to unpack this a little bit today because there's been a lot of talking a lot of chatter about Bill C9 which if you're unfamiliar with Bill C9 it's an act to amend the criminal code to address hate propaganda hate crime

and access to religious or cultural places. So, this this has got a lot of attention from Christian groups, any any religious group really in in Canada. Um, and like I said, there's been a lot of reaction to it and we think it's helpful to have a conversation to maybe clear up some of the things around this because some things are being said that don't actually appear to be addressed or targeted in this bill. So, we want to talk about some of these main points a little bit and uh and then just kind of talk about how, you know, how we would frame an appropriate response, an appropriate heart, posture in response today for us as believers in Canada in 2026. Uh Chris, do you want to add

anything as far as introductory preamble to to our conversation here? Yeah, I I think this is really important conversations for us to have because we're going to touch areas because there was been a lot of flurry around this and many people involved >> and if you were involved in contacting your MP and making phone calls and connecting all that, that's all good. We want to say that. But keep it up. Don't just save it for special occasions. You want to be building relationships on a long an ongoing basis, but you don't want to be what I used to be called uh when I was in in in politics, I was a a chief of staff. Uh you don't want to be a frequent flyer. I mean by by somebody

who complains all the time. You want to have a living and active relationship with your member of parliament and their staff. So when they do good things, tell them they do good things. Don't just save all your complaints up because nobody likes a whiner. That's the reality. And you'll get way more. You what's the old saying? You'll you'll attract more flies with honey. And um not that. Who likes flies? I don't know why I didn't like that idea, but anyway, but but we want to be known as the people of God, the people of hope, of joy and peace, not the people that whine all the time. >> That's right. I'm thinking of that the the adage um you know the squeaky wheel

gets the grease and yes complaining in the short term may get some may get some response may get some answers but long term if I own a car the squeaky wheel is not my favorite wheel >> right like it's it's uh we we don't want to just be the ones who complain when there's an issue when there's a problem we want to be we want to be a city a city that's a light set on a hill you know we want to be we want to be continuous positive presence bringing the kingdom of God wherever we are, not just complaining when things aren't going our way. So, >> exactly. Let me let me just I know I'm this is the an early for a for a for a bunny trail, but this is essential. I

was talking to a pastor this week. We're planning a very big event here in Ottawa. And uh and we're having some hiccups with permitting at this particular event. And so I asked the pastor who lives on the Quebec side of I said, "So who's your member of parliament? Have you reached out to them to give you some help?" He says, "I don't know the name of my member of parliament." So pastors or just anybody listening to this, if you do not know the name of your member of parliament, you do not get a gold star today. I'm going to tell you that right now. You need to know who these people are because how do you pray for them if you don't know who they are? And number two,

pastors, you should have a relationship and having coffee with this member of parliament at least once a year so you can tell them what God is doing in your congregation. And I just want to encourage you to do that because these are opportunities to build bridges because you are constituent in that the in that in that MP's writing. But mostly now pastors listen to this. That MP is in your constituency and you're supposed to be caring for him or her. There you go. So that's a little bit of a preamble to this conversation today. So, Bill C9, let's talk through what we're going to do is we're going to talk through some of the clauses from this from this bill.

I've just kind of pulled those off uh government of Canada website from from kind of one of their summaries of of the bill and let's talk about the things that are actually in there and there's some concerning things. There's some good things. And so, let's have a conversation about where we're actually at today as far as we can see and yes, what we see trending in the future. and uh and let's just so we can have a clear a clear response and a clearheaded way to move forward, I guess, is kind of what we're looking for here. So, >> yeah. >> So, again, Bill C9, act to amend the criminal code related to hate propaganda, hate crime, and access to religious or cultural places. So number

one uh thing that I'll throw out there is the first thing they they mentioned uh one of the clauses that was originally written in but then voted on to be removed is that uh they wanted to say that the attorney general's consent would not be required in order for a group a party to pursue charges against another group based on this legislation. So basically what this means is you know the house threw that out. So basically the attorney general basically has to give their consent >> to say yes this case can go forward on this basis of uh hate crime legislation like it's it's can't we just can't have people going around going hate crime hate crime hate crime hate crime the

attorney general has to look at it and say yep this meets the threshold you can pursue it this this charge any thoughts on that Chris >> yeah that's really really important because like we've seen for example in the what are those things the oh those tribunals those that where where anybody can randomly uh just bring a protest and all of a sudden you're before a tribunal what are they called uh uh anyway >> like a human rights tribunal >> human's rights exactly and and that was a big big fear that anybody could willy-nilly say hey you said something and all of a sudden you're dragged into the court with these having to go through the process of going through the attorney

general's office means that they have to meet the criteria and weigh it and see if it is actually valid. So many of us we were hearing in in the early days that these things would randomly come and we could be dragged into courts really really fast and that appears it looks like they put the safeguards in place so that wouldn't happened and that's a really good thing. >> Yep. And I like that willy-nilly. >> I like that. That's pretty I like that. >> I was surprised that actually came out. Okay, [laughter] >> that's a fun one. Um, okay. So, that's the first one there. Uh, second one we'll highlight here. So, under this legislation, it is an offense to promote

hatred by displaying terrorism and hate related symbols. So, for example, the swastika >> or any symbol that is principally used by or associated with a a listed terrorist entity. >> Right? So this is this is kind of a this is kind of a good thing especially you know when we think of uh we've heard stories from friends of ours uh well you heard it personally uh in the Jewish community um just from the past couple years related to swast. You want to tell one or two of those stories? Yeah, our friends uh the Greens uh Caner Jason and our friend Jodie Green, wonderful family. We're good friends with them and and they were sharing that one winter's night their uh son um looked out the

front window and in the snow etched on their front yard was a swastika and that was meant to intimidate. Right? Even when we see these flags of known terrorist entities, >> right? That's really interesting because now there's a way to prosecute that kind of things because terrorists are terrorists and uh and hopefully I mean they haven't done it yet but now hopefully this law will maybe give it some some more teeth or make it clearer what the parameters are. Also, one thing that I knew is they added a new symbol uh into that and when we were in the Senate for third reading and listening, they added the news. And I actually thought initially when I heard that, I

thought I never heard this story. But then I started to hear the testimonies, especially coming um uh from the black community that there are Canadians that actually use this noose to which symbolizes lynchings, >> and they actually happen in Canada. And actually one of the senators that this thing had exper she had experienced personally. >> Oh my goodness. >> So I am so grateful that that was brought there because now we can do that. It doesn't matter. We like any kind of thing that is meant to to kill to to intimidate to to stifle um those things in which they are there. And we see this in the Jewish community. We see this really readily in the Jewish

community. Um, we're going to talk about this in a little while about worship spaces, but you know, our friend Rabbi uh Daniel Kromkin at Tobayat in Thorn Hill, well, his congre his synagogue has been shot on numerous occasions and now there's a law that will add more teeth to it. So, >> yeah. And I and uh yeah, I the the symbol that comes to mind for me as well is just that that inverted red triangle that's been showing up >> and just how that's that's a symbol used by a listed terrorist entity >> in the Middle East and uh it being used here is clearly to to intimidate and inspire fear. So yeah, this this bill targets symbols like that and uh there are protections in there for like for

example if it's being used in good faith i.e. Maybe a journalist is writing a story on something about the, you know, the Third Reich, the Nazi regime, and what they, you know, what they did. Maybe in an image associated with that article, there's a swastika along with other things that wouldn't be counted as as hate speech or inspiring fear. It's just it's just documentation of this is this is some of the the symbols associated with this group that we're talking about from back then. So it's it's not just anytime one shows up all of a sudden it's all hate speech. It's if it's being used with the intention of generating fear or hate or something like that. So

>> and and maliciousness as well. >> Yes. >> And and so we're going to talk a little bit more on what those guidelines are. And they're really clear. They're not just willy again willy-nilly. And uh they are they are there are really strong parameters that are there. >> Um yeah. >> Yeah. So actually that's part of this. So new section 3196 and the section this is dealing with the criminal code of Canada. So this new section was added to the criminal code in this in this part of the criminal code. It clarifies that the communication of a statement, >> yeah, >> does not incite or promote hatred for the purposes of this section solely because it discredits, humiliates,

hurts, or offends. So basically this this wording was added to the criminal code saying just because someone said something that discredits another group or humiliates or hurts or offends that communication alone does not constitute the inciting or promoting of hatred. So there's kind of been this this this worry that just because a statement is made it could be taken out of context and made to say this must be hate speech. Well, it's saying no, just communicating a statement itself is doesn't meet the threshold of inciting hatred. That's that's the wording that's in there. >> That's really really interesting. So, how so how we got to a lot of this thought was way back then when back in

the middle of the winter when Minister Miller said that the Bible in committee, you know, he was he was rambling. and he was saying something and the scripture tells us that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. So obviously we could see what was inside his heart and he shared this thing actually we did a video on it when he shared it. Marilyn did a video on it got over 60,000 views. Thank you for watching. Um but uh that was based out of something that he was rambling and we could see maybe maybe he was thinking of maybe the government was thinking maybe that's there but it sure it sure opened up our eyes and made us all afraid. I didn't like what he was

saying. I didn't like that he was saying that that certain texts could be construed as hate speech. Right? But this part of the law says he wasn't saying that. Right? he was saying something a little bit more different. And I'm not saying that there could be a slippery slope. We've seen lots of slippery slopes over the years. And uh and we're still mindful of that, but it's still be aware. Look at look at the parameters there. That's why it's so important. I want to say this that when we see legislation and you're hearing somebody go on and on about legislation and you haven't read the legislation and I know sometimes a little bit wordy and stuff like that and but I would

encourage you read the legislation see for yourself you know and if you have questions talk to your member of parliament about that or talk to a staffer have them explain it right so that you understand what it is clearly because we were seeing them a lot of things that they were saying we weren't seeing in this. And that's why you didn't hear us chirping too much about stuff we didn't hear about, right? We would talk about the things we heard about, but the things we didn't hear about, the things we didn't read. Um, we weren't saying, "Well, this was there when it wasn't there." And that's really, really important that you do your homework, you read, you see what

it's about, and if you need help, there are people that help you. Staffers will help you. um they're really wonderful. They'll help you with that kind of stuff. >> Yep. So, just just for a little bit of clarity there, [clears throat] I'm I'm paraphrasing it, but if if I remember correctly, in that committee uh hearing, uh Minister Miller was responding to a question and he he made a comment about I think he said something to the effect of not being able to understand how certain texts of the Bible can't be construed as hate speech. >> Things like Romans 1 and passages in Leviticus and so on. And and so I think immediately the concern came that's what that's the belief they're writing into

this bill. >> Yeah. >> But that doesn't appear in this bill. That there isn't something in this bill that that that uh lists Romans 1 or Leviticus 18, I think it is, and other places that calls them clearly hate speech. That that's not in here. In fact, there's a there's uh >> um this line from from the government's own uh you know summary of the bill. They said this. This act does not criminalize religious teaching, sermons, scripture, peaceful assembly, political advocacy, opinions, disagreement, or criticism. The offenses are targeting intentional intimidation and obstruction, hate motivated crime, and the willful promotion of hatred under high legal thresholds. And we'll get to that

definition of hatred in a minute, but there's this concern that because Minister Miller said this in committee, that must be in this bill. So, we're just here to say that's not in this bill. Okay. But as Chris, as you already mentioned, Chris, it does give us a bit of insight into this is how this is how at least this one um key cabinet minister, how he thinks about scripture, how he thinks about the Bible, and then by extension the Torah, the Quran, and and other passage and other um texts that would talk about some of these matters. And so to the slippery slope idea, could legislation like that be coming in the future? Yep. Possibly. I think we've seen we've seen some trending towards

that. What we're saying is it's not in leg it's not in legislation right now. >> So, I remember back to Bill C4, the I forget how many years ago this is now. That was the one dealing with um oh, I lost the words there. Uh the anti-conversion therapy bill. >> Yeah. And there was concern that they're going to start rounding up pastors and and counselors based on this legislation, you know, as soon as it's law. And I can't I I'm not aware of a single pastor or counselor who's been imprisoned based on that legislation. >> Now, I I I too I think that was 2022, early in 2022. And uh yeah, I we haven't I haven't seen anything. We've re researched it. Um and so again

uh we were really concerned and it's good to be concerned of course it's good to be concerned. >> Uh we should always voice our concerns >> but again the things the predictions that we were hearing >> um have not yet manifested. Uh but we'll see uh because there's always opportunity for people to weaponize legislation. Yes. >> Right. There there's always that there. And so we're going to be mindful of this and even in in the coming bills that we see right now C16 um these other uh other bills that are actually curbing a lot of freedom of speech, freedom of media and all this other stuff in protections. Uh so we are mindful that there's potentially something coming

that is akin to uh death by a thousand cuts. Let's say it is all these little tiny nick ding ding ding ding ding. This is stuff we're really worried about because not just one bill, but it could be many many bills that are culminating and culminating and culminating. However, we're still going to pray, right? And like like uh like the Apostle Paul said in 2 Timothy 2, even though he was in chained and unlawfully and not fair, it wasn't fair how he was brought into chains, right? It was completely unjust and he was in chains. But the word of God is not in chains. So that's why we preach the word which is sharper than any two-edged sword. And uh and that's why we do this. And we're not afraid.

We're not afraid and ashamed of the gospel. We're going to be doing preaching these things, but we're mindful. And that's what we're talking about. And mindful being wise as serpents and gentle as doves. and we're looking at things and we're saying, is this what this means? Could this mean this? But we're just saying so far, we're not seeing a lot of the stuff that we were told by some individuals out there and uh that we're not seeing that in this legislation. >> Yeah. So, if we are on a slippery slope, we're not at the bottom of the slope right now. We're still somewhere up closer to the top, but we do acknowledge we're on a bit of a slope as a as a as a society, as a culture

>> um in Canada. So, we're just trying to be clear on that is here's where we're at. We don't have to be afraid. It's not again not the bottom of the slope, but let's be aware and let's be awake. Let's be sober minded. Let's be vigilant. Let's be honest with where we are. >> Um, okay. So, the next one here, so this uh one of the things that's interesting about C9 is it actually uh new section 30 uh 3197 actually has a definition of hatred. >> Yes. And it and so it defines hatred as an emotion of an intense and extreme nature that is clearly associated with vilification and detestation. >> Okay. So there is a a clear definition of hatred in here. So again to an

earlier point it's it's not this person said this thing and it made me feel bad so they hate me. Like there's you there there's a burden of proof there of you have to they have to be able to prove that there's an intentional stirring up of an intense emotion an extreme nature to that emotion that is clearly associated with vilification and detestation >> of the subject. So so uh yeah any thoughts on that? Yeah, I uh I was at I was at uh a vigil for when the hostages were still in captivity uh December of 2024 and uh we were there to stand vigil waiting for the host hostages in Toronto at Bathston Shepard and there was this picture that was just absolutely vile

depicting exactly what we're talking about and this was allowed to stand there and it was in your face. read what it says because that is in fact hate speech. And I actually at that time I approached the police officer. There were many of them there because there was uh uh there was a lot of things that were in formation there. The the pro Hamas team was growing and very agitated and very um in your face. They kept crossing into very coming very very close. Uh but I even asked the police officer. I said take a look. I took a picture. I said what is this? this is actually fits the definition of our existing laws. I said, "So, why aren't you doing anything about this?" Um,

because this is this is basically the same the same tropes that we were seeing that we've seen for hundreds of years against the Jewish people. Same stuff. And uh and they did nothing. They had they didn't have the political will. They didn't have I I don't know what was stopping them from it. uh the rule of law obviously wasn't in play, but maybe legislation like this might make it easier. I hope it does. I hope it does for the sake especially for the sake of the Jewish community and us too. Like even even the fact of let's talk about burning churches like this will get into this like the legislation actually addresses this kind of stuff. Although nobody mentioned it hardly ever when I

was in the Senate. Nobody talked about the hundreds of churches that were burnt. um they were too afraid of it politically, I suppose. Uh but they sure did talk about a lot about Islam is Islamophobia, but that's another talk. And uh >> well, we touched on that one last week or last last episode with Tim, right? We talked about uh >> that and so but these things are in play and uh that hopefully will make for a better Canada. That's what what's what our heart is. You know, this is the whole thing in in in 1 Timothy 2 that we live peaceful and godly lives. That's part of it. That's part of the prayer, right? That there isn't this adversary and this hatefulness and this

maliciousness, all of this part of our prayer out of 2 Timothy, 1 Timothy 2 is is this is that we want to see this peace in our nation. >> And that's the Jeremiah 29:7 thing as well. This thing of seek the welfare of the city where you dwell. It's We're seeking the welfare not just for We're not seeking what would be best for the church. We're seeking the welfare of Canada. We're seeking we're seeking conditions that contribute to human flourishing. That's that's the heart of God that we would, you know, he created man and put us in the Garden of Eden where it was good. Everything was good. He put us his desires that we would dwell where it is good and where we

could flourish. And that's the point of that's the point of righteous legislation is actually that it would create conditions that feed human flourishing and not create for pain and and and uh distortion and perversion, all these kinds of things. So yeah, we're seeking the good of not just not just the church, we're seeking the good of our our society. And that's why that's what we go after in good legislation. >> That's exactly it. You know, so often and and unfortunately we >> sometimes as Christians are really selferving because we just want the stuff to protect us. >> But we really should we we want stuff that'll protect our entire nation. That's what we want.

>> And we want the very best for our nation. You know, the heart of God is that none should perish, right? And that's the kind of of of our heart is for God so loved the world. And because God loved the world, we love the world. And because Christ lays down his life, we lay down our lives. Right? That's what we do. We're little Christs. And that's what we do in our society to make the c to bring the kingdom of God. >> Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it in heaven. And that's the heart of God. >> Yes. Exactly. So, uh, here's the next one here. And Chris, you kind of hinted towards this already. So the bill C9 includes new prohibitions or added

prohibitions against obstructing or interfering with access to places of places of worship and other certain places such as cemeteries and and other things like that. Um it's on par with protection of access to health care services. So um you know several years ago they made it illegal to protest in such a way that blocks access to hospitals and things like that. We saw some of that during COVID I believe. Um, >> yeah. >> And so, you know, there's there's prohibitions that that uh prevent people from obstructing or interfering with access to places of worship. So, that's that's protecting church gatherings. That's we we like that. That's good for us. And it's good for Jews and it's good

for Muslims and it's good for it's good for a lot of Canadians. >> Um, [snorts] it makes Yeah, it makes it an offense to I'll just finish this up and then throw it to you. uh makes it an offense to engage in any conduct with the intent to provoke a state of fear in a person or to impede their access to places that are used for worship or by an identifiable group. So any kind of hatred towards whether it's racially based, whether it's based on uh um you know sexual orientations and gender identities and so on like if there's any kind of hatred or action activity that's meant to create fear in people who are trying to access those places that's prohibited and that's a good thing. >> Yeah,

>> that's that's good legislation. In my in my mind that part of it is good legislation, Chris. >> Yeah. I this this I think a lot of this came from um back oh back in the winter of 2024. Um one of the uh I I talked about Daniel Kuramkin. Um, right. He's a he's a rabbi in Toronto in his his he he is a rabbi at the bay and his congregation his synagogue has been shot numerous times and and um and protested numerous times and I remember we were in we were in British Columbia at that time and there was this planned protest for his synagogue and uh so I called up some of my friends in in in Markham Thorn Hill the northern part of Toronto and said, "Listen, there's this planned

protest for that synagogue. Can you get out there and stand with them?" And they went and stood and I think there was our friends from Canada House of Prayer and they sent a whole bunch of people to stand there with the Jewish community. And meanwhile, these guys were permitted the pro Hamas people were per were were felt that they were free to intimidate and harass. And like I said, that synagogue had been shot numerous times, not just once. Uh, numerous times that synagogue had been shot and um and they were able to stand up and stand with him. So to have this legislation there, and I I just want to say this about synagogues and those who don't understand, you know, most

most synagogues in our nation, most of them, um, you can't come in unless they know who you are, right? Like when we show up on Sunday morning, our doors are wide open. Anybody can walk in. The greeters say hello. But when you go to a synagogue, um you're going to go through security, right? >> If they don't know who you are, um and you can't explain who you are and why you're there, you're not getting in. So when I go and visit people on on Shabbat, uh Jews on Shabbat, uh I let them know I'm coming, otherwise I'm not getting in. >> And that's not just since October 7th. This is decades long. This is decades long. This is not just new. This is what they've been dealing with for the

longest since forever. Um, and even in their e, even when you sit in their in the sanctuary, um, you will see these big red buttons, panic buttons on the walls for when things go if things were go bad, people, somebody can run and hit it and then uh, alert the police. However, I um, here's another story. Uh, friends of ours were at the the Israeli embassy's ambassador's home. uh their first first peoples, indigenous people. They were at for at his house for um uh feast of tabernacles, >> right? >> And uh and they were there and somebody the prohos people found out um where the ambassador lived. They didn't know but they and they showed up with a huge throng to intimidate. And you want to

know something? It took, this is in the city of Ottawa in a very in the most prestigious part of Ottawa and it took 45 minutes for the police to come. That is bizarre. That is unbelievable. Their His home was under siege and it took 45 minutes for the police to come. That is terrible. Anyway, >> yeah, not cool. >> No. >> Um, okay. So, we've got that. We've touched on those things there. There's a few other points in there, but we're going to finish with one the the one that seems to be getting the most airtime, at least from Christian commentators on this, and that is the removal of the in good faith clause or the removal of defense of good faith religious belief. So basically the

burden of proof is still on the prosecution to demonstrate that there has been a willful promotion of hatred and a will or a willful promotion of anti-semitism, Islamophobia, something else. Um so the in good faith clause, Chris, you've talked a little bit about the history of it. Just in very generic terms, this isn't something that's been there from the beginning in our criminal code, right? Like that's something that's a little more recent, right? This is actually not a very old law in the scheme of confederation, right? We're 159 years old. This bill is around 50 years old and it was brought in um you know back in the 70s and but it's never been successfully

argued in court. And so this is and this is this is the stuff that they were saying in in in the Senate in the third reading in the Senate. this was a big argument um that they wanted to leave it in and and there and let me say this about the Senate so so you understand things in the Senate my day uh listening to C9 and the third reading of C9 in the Senate was a really great day I learned a lot uh more I saw something that I didn't see in the past and what I saw many times we think uh in terms of the Senate that it's uh red or blue and uh and that's pretty much it. It's like the and it's not like that in the Senate at all. There are five different groups in

the Senate, not two, right? There's conservatives, there are liberals, there are liberals that call themselves independent, but that doesn't fool anybody. They're still liberals. Um there's progressives, and there's indigenous, right? So, there are five different separate groups. I get them all. >> There's one other group. You can remember the fifth one, right? >> Yeah. See, conservative, liberal, liberal, progressive, indigenous, five. There we go. >> Okay. >> And uh and um and you want to know something when they were arguing this, there were members in each of the groups that were foreign against that particular bill. And there were members in each of those five little groups that

didn't like the in good fa faith clause and like the gain good fa faith clause. And that caught me by surprise. And actually there was something that happened that had never happened in its in from what I understand in the history of the Senate is they asked for an amendment and but an amendment on an amendment and and the house the government leader. >> So So just to clarify that real quick. So So believe it was the conservatives brought forward a proposed amendment. >> Yes. >> Which wasn't going to pass. >> Yes. And they they asked if they could make an amendment to the amendment. >> Yes. >> To try to make it work. And and >> and the government said, "Let's go talk.

Let's go talk." And there was a willingness and they went back to the government, the the Senate leader went to the minister to talk about it. This, but there was a willingness to negotiate, which I didn't see coming, right? There was a willingness to say to make it work. And to tell you the truth, and this is this was the main argument and this was they brought up. How can we in how can someone say that they want to commit genocide in good faith? Good question. [laughter] And and and that's that's if you want to know where this bill came from, it actually came out of uh a court case out of Quebec where an imam was calling for the genocide of the Jewish people and he said, "Well, it's

in the Quran, so it's okay." Right? And that was his excuse. And the and but he wasn't just calling saying nasty things. He was literally calling for their extermination. He was calling for them to rise up in this global inifada. And that's what it means. When you hear the word global inifada, that means they want to kill Jews everywhere and then Christians. >> But that's what it means. And so the Senate was saying, "How can we say in good faith it's okay to call for genocide?" >> Right? >> And you know what I >> That is a great question. >> I I I would say so how do you do that? How can you do that and say, "Well, it's a good faith." Yeah, we want them all

dead, but in good faith. And so and that's the crux of what's going on here. So perhaps they needed to argue a better argument. And I actually spoke with senators afterwards, even the progressive senators that said we should have went about it this way and should have championed freedom of religion and other things. So there were other ways to do it. But again, when we look at the fullness of this law, parts of it are worrisome. Maybe somebody can weaponize, but it's not as draconian as we thought it was. >> Right. And al I'll say to the follow-up to that statement, it's not as draconian as we thought it was. I'm actually more as a as a pastor and and a citizen and

whatever. I'm actually more concerned about Bill C22 than I am about Bill C9. >> Yes. >> And Bill C22 having to deal with uh what is like privacy and online information, all that kind of stuff. That one's more concerning. Um because and because it doesn't just target religious groups, it targets every citizen in Canada. >> Um but Bill C9, so again, as a as a pastor of a local church and someone who So here's how we do things in our church, at least this year, it's been pretty cool actually. We've been using as a church, we're on a Bible reading plan. We read through the Bible together. And the reason we've done that is is so that one of the one of the reasons for that is if you're meeting

with someone from the church um and you've just read something in the word that day that you're thinking about and you're like how do we talk about this? You know that they've read the same passage. And the whole part of this was like let's get the word into our conversations is kind of the idea. And uh and so in in the spirit of that, what we're doing this year is we're whenever someone's teaching on a Sunday morning, they're teaching from one of the passages that are in our readings for that day. So we're So sometimes there's tricky passages in there and I actually kind of look forward to those. Um just this past Sunday, it was Genesis 22, Abraham being invited to offer Isaac as a

sacrifice. And that's that's a tough passage for a lot of people, but man, I love I love talking from there. But anyways, the reason I say that is so I'm I'm committed to teaching from the word, whatever comes up from there on that particular Sunday. Um, and as a local church pastor, I the reason I like passages like Genesis 22 is I think they actually unlock something of the love and heart of God um through offensive situations. If we just take it at a surface reading, we can get offended and upset and and question God. But if we actually dig a little bit and weigh that with, okay, so this thing is happening, but the Bible also tells me this and this and this

about you and your character. How do these work? How do these coexist? And when we wrestle with it and dig a little deeper, I find it unlocks more it unlocks more understanding of the heart of God than if we just take simple surface value statements. like the the grace of God means so much more when I consider it with the holiness of God. Anyways, moving on from that. So, some of these passages that for example that Minister Miller um you know says I don't see how that wouldn't constitute hate speech. Okay, understandable. That's I think that's a surface reading of it. But when we hold that intention with statements like Peter, second Peter 3 saying it's God's heart that none should perish.

>> Yeah. >> But that all come to everlasting life. So even these passages that that can feel or sound harsh, we have to consider it in light of the heart of God. So, as a local pastor, local church pastor, what I like about this bill is it doesn't give pastors room to use the Bible to promote hatred against a group. >> If you're teaching a passage like Romans 1 and using it, I'm thinking of Westboroough Baptist Church back in the day. You remember those guys? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I think if you're teaching in that way, you're teaching the word wrong. You're misrepresenting who God is. >> Yeah. And so I kind of like that there's something in this bill that that is

highlighting or that is that is forcing pastors to be careful about how we handle these conversations. Not to tiptoe around and be afraid of them, but to to wrestle with what is the heart of God in this passage >> because his heart is that none should perish. That means he doesn't hate people. >> His desire is that all would come to him and be restored to him. He gave up his life for the sins of the world. So, it makes us wrestle with what is actually the heart of God in this passage. And that to me, that's a good thing because if you're teaching the Bible in such a way that willfully promotes or incites hatred against another people group, against a religion, against, you know,

whatever, if you're teaching it that way, I'm pretty sure you're teaching it wrong. And I don't mind that being clamped down on. Yeah, I I I agree. You know, if you could go go back to what the the definition. So, let's read that definition again so that you could see how clear it is. It's not about hurting feelings. Remember, and I know we've been in a season of like 10 or 15 years of, oh, you hurt my feelings, therefore you should go to jail. I mean, that's that's what we've been living in a lot of times, but this is not that. This is being something. It's about maliciousness. And where in the heart of the Lord is malicious? Again, we go to the fruit of

the spirit. You look at the fruit of the spirit. And what the what are the fruit and many times we read the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, something something something, right? >> And it's but it's it's sufferings, it's patience, it's gentleness, it's kindness, right? If you're presenting the gospel, and I'm not saying that yes, sometimes we need to preach that that God is holy and he's awesome and he's fearsome and we need to be we need to be >> reverence and awe. >> Reverence and awe, right? That has to be there. Don't be flippant in your walk with God. Don't be don't don't treat it like it's nothing because it is actually a very holy thing. But how we project

the gospel comes out of a place you should be manifesting all kinds of that good fruit. Love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, self-control, perseverance, faithfulness. Those are the things that need to be coming out. And if you're preaching a message that says, "I want those guys to die," you're doing it wrong. >> You're missing the point. You're missing it. Yeah. And it's go back to Exodus 34, is it? Right. Moses says, "Show me your glory." >> Yeah. >> And the Lord says, "Okay, I'll show you my glory." And he does the whole, you know, cleft of the rock, covers them, passes by, says, and he declares his name, the Lord, >> the Lord, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in loving

kindness. And then I love the distinction he makes of of by no means clearing the guilty and the thing about the sins of the fathers to the third and the fourth generation. But then it says but keeping mercy to a thousand generations. Like >> there's a huge difference. There's a huge imbalance there of >> you know James put it this way. Mercy triumphs over judgment. In the heart of God he is eager to show mercy. And that's that's the point of the cross. Jesus said, "I would rather take this judgment of sin on myself." >> Yeah. >> And have you restored to me than you have to take it your than you have to bear it for yourself. It's mercy triumphs over judgment. I He would rather extend mercy.

>> And that needs to come through in all of our preaching of these difficult passages. >> It's it's it's there's a term that we use now uh especially in social media called ratioed, right? Where they look at the ratio of likes and stuff to comments. And when you look at the ratio to the curses going back to three and four generations versus the mercy of God that goes to a thousand generation. Talk about ratio. This is a good ratio. >> Yeah, >> it's a very good ratio. And I'll I'll say this. I love this. >> You know, there's this there's this whole argument about the God of the Old Testament. You know, some some Christians would say the that Jesus was a departure from the God of the Old

Testament. I fully disagree with that. Yeah, >> I wholeheartedly disagree with that. And some would say, [snorts] um, okay, because there's there's a lot of passages in the Old Testament that feel pretty harsh. You know, you read through even, you know, read through Isaiah, you know, the first 40 chapters of Isaiah, there's some difficult stuff in there. But I think what we lose sight of is the fact of, you know, so there's so many prophets and they say so much about judgment and and so on and so forth. And what we lose sight of is the fact that that didn't happen in the span of five or ten years. Yeah, >> right. This is over, you know, you think so, Israel is established, Saul becomes

a king, if I'm remembering correctly, roughly 1050 BC. You go back, you know, 1500 or so. Um, was it 1500 or so, 1400 so where it's Moses and you have Exodus 19, the establishment of the covenant at Sinai, God saying, "Walk with me and these blessings will come." You know, all that whole thing. makes his covenant with Isra like reestablishes that a covenant covenant with Israel. But then you've got you've got hundreds of years. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, you got 4 or 500 years till Saul becomes king and then you have David and Solomon and then the kingdom splits and you've got until it was 721 BC that that Assyria conquered the northern kingdom and then it was 586 BC when when Babylon

like the third wave of crushing Jerusalem, taking exiles into captivity. So you're talking almost a thousand years >> from Mount Si to the Babylonian exile where and we read the story through the Old Testament Israel is very hot and cold towards the Lord more cold than hot over the years and it's God is incredibly long-suffering and slow to anger that he would give them so long before the land finally spit them out And and we lose sight of that. We think we read a prophet's book and it's like judgment, judgment, judgment. Wow, God's always angry. Actually, these are messages. These are messages that are designed to like >> this is this is God yelling, "Turn, return to me." >> Yeah.

>> Um after they've been straying for so long. And I think we lose sight of that when we read the Old Testament. God is actually very slow to anger. We on the other hand give up on people very very quickly. I I'm I'm even thinking of one example of a a a Christian televangelist like when back when pride parades started becoming a a big thing and this one Christian tele evangelist either praying for or prophesying fire and brimstone on this one city that was hosting a pride parade and it's like that's not the heart of God and he jumped to that very very quickly. Whereas God, and we see this today, God suffers long with us. >> Yeah. >> As we continually move away from him.

And you know, the world thinks if you know, if God doesn't like what you're doing, he's going to strike you dead immediately, hit you with lightning, something like that, right? And then when that doesn't happen, we go, "Oh, he's not paying attention." Both are wrong. He's longsuffering, >> giving us time, wishing that none should perish, but all come to repentance. >> That's exactly it. You know, I love that you touched that because so often, especially when we talk about, for example, Prime Minister Carney and and I look at the comments that come into our things and some of the comments are really really great and some of you get it and there are comments that yes,

God's going to get Carney. He you have to understand that the Lord loves him. >> Mhm. >> You know, Marilyn Marilyn said this this uh uh a couple when Prime Minister Trudeau was was um prime minister, we were up in the gallery uh during question period. It was uh Wednesday's prime minister was coming in and he was coming in. He had two big glasses of water and his in his uh his talking points binder under his arm and he comes in and and Marilyn was sat there and she sat up there and she was saying that she's looking at him with contempt. She was sitting up there looking at him with contempt. And then the Holy Spirit spoke to her from from uh Song of Solomon and

it and and and the Lord spoke to her. says, "Yes, but he's captured my heart." And Marilyn says to the Lord, "Who him? Are you talking about him? That guy? That guy captured your heart?" "Yes, that's why I sent my son. He is why I sent my son." And so when we Well, yes. But I'll tell you, there's a lot of stuff that the prime minister doing that drives me nuts. It does. There are things that he says that gets makes my blood boil. IT DOES. I GO AND I go and blow off some steam and and then I have to go back and pray for him. And I have to pray for him because because because it's like you said out of out of Peter, it's God's heart that none should perish. We shouldn't be cheering when

people are going to hell. That's not a good thing to do. That's not a good look on you as a believer. You should be in tears because they're going to hell. You should be crying out to God because they're going to hell. And I want to encourage you if you have if you are one of those that do that, turn around. >> Yeah. Repent. >> Turn around. Repent. And don't just stop, but go the other way. My friend, Rabbi Yehuda Glick says this, "Turn around and go home." And home is where the father is. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I love that we if if you forgot, we started talking about Bill C9 and here we are. But this is the point. We're talking about the heart of God in all this. And uh that's

that's our hope is that >> yeah, that we that we're thinking and responding and reacting from that place, not from what our political will is. So, prayer stream podcast, we like to finish with so how do we take this into prayer? talking about Bill C9, what's in it, clarifying what's not in it. Um, just seeing where we're at now. Chris, how would you take this into prayer? How would you posture yourself in prayer around Bill C9? Back to our foundation. 1 Timothy 2, pray all kinds of prayers for everybody, for kings and those in authority, that we live peaceful and godly lives. That's the what we want, which is good. It pleases God so that all men and women

would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It's all about the kingdom. Don't ring your hands. Don't worry. We see that the bill is maybe not. Is is there a chance that there could be somebody weaponizing? Maybe they will. But our heart is to pray for our nation. Pray for our leaders. Pray for the shalom of God, the completeness of God, the fullness of God to rest on Parliament, to rest on Canada, to rest in your house, to rest in your workplace, to rest in your school. We pray for that. We pray out of James 3, what is it? Uh we pray, we want to sew in shalom because when we sew in shalom, righteousness grows. That's a paraphrase. Th those who sow in peace

will reap a harvest of righteousness. Yeah, >> that's exactly it. And that's what we want to do. We want to reap harvests, not just one, but harvests of righteousness in our nation. And it doesn't come through fear. It doesn't come through intimidation. It comes via the peace that passes understanding, ruling our hearts and mind in Christ Jesus. >> There you go. Nice Philippians 4 reference. Um, and the one I'll take from this is Acts 4. Uh, I just love it. I one of the things I love about about the apostolic prayers in the New Testament. We never see them praying against things. >> Yes. >> Never. And so in Acts 4, you got Peter and John. You got the notable miracle in

the temple. They're preaching in the temple. And the religious leaders shut them down, threaten them not to teach in the name of Jesus anymore. They go back and tell the other believers. They have a they jump into a prayer meeting. They're quoting Psalm 2. Lord, they're raging against you um and against your son that you've set on your holy hill. And then their prayer is look on their threats. >> Yes. >> And grant to us that with all boldness we'd continue to speak your word and that you would reach out your hand. >> Yes. >> With signs and wonders in the name of your holy servant Jesus. and and God shakes the place where they're gathered and they go out and continue to speak in

boldness. So what I take from that is no matter what legislation comes up, we pray God make us bold and so that at the preaching of the name of your son Jesus, you would do signs and wonders and we wouldn't back down. And so that's what I say. It's it's uh haters going to hate if it gets there, right? But we want to we want to say, "God, don't let us crumple in fear. Fill us with boldness. Help us to be faithful." And that's not that's not raging and yelling in response. That's just what was that what was that term from last year? That bold humility. >> So it's stand in bold humility. >> Bold but not arrogant, not boisterous. >> Yeah. >> Standing in humility, but bold in

humility. And just putting his name out there. He's still the only name by which men are saved. So, >> amen. >> That's that's how I would take it. Acts four, pray that prayer. Fill us with boldness. >> Amen. >> All right. So, there you have it. That's our take on Bill C9. And you can apply that to any other piece of legislation that that worries you. Um our our posture is still the same. Look on their threats. Grant us with all boldness we continue preaching. So, that's that's it for C9 today. We might have another conversation like this in the future. We'll see. But uh that's why we do this. Just keep talking about it. Keep our hearts in a good place. So, thanks for

joining with us for another episode of the prayer stream. We're in the summer now. As we said earlier, it'll be [music] a couple weeks, few weeks before you see another one. But, uh we'll be back with a with another uh another hour of just conversation [music] around stuff that's going on in Canada. So, until then, [music] we will see you next time. Bye for now. >> Thanks [music] for listening to Prayer Stream, a podcast from the National House of Prayer. Click the like [music] button, share and subscribe to stay uptodate on all our future episodes. For more information on upcoming events, [music] prayer resources, or the Canopy of Prayer, please visit us at www.enhob.ca. See you next time.